GSP# 92: Arthur Rhames, 12-Key Transposition, and a Grant Proposal for Jazz Education

Got it, baby.

Got it.

Yeah.

Can you hear that?

You're being recorded now.

So, you know, complying.

Except I accept the law in New York, actually, is that.

It's only.

It's a single, single consent.

Only one person has to consent.

But you're not.

Same thing in Virginia.

Okay, the same thing.

But anyway, we're both being recorded.

This is the Getcha Some productions podcast, episode 92.

We are a podcast covering all things related to music production.

From the first note to the last fan, everything in between.

My name is Keith.

My name is Daniel.

Before we start, I forgot how to do the intro.

Before we start.

Oh, right.

Many episodes.

We do a lot of interviews now, which is fun.

But today is a business meeting, and I called on Dan to help me with something.

This is going to be a repeat episode.

So this particular episode is just a business meeting, and I called on Dan to help me with something that I don't even know if I told you in advance what I needed help with.

But before we start, if you want to support the podcast, please click the link in the description.

It's probably going to be the first link.

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Okay, so, Dan, I needed your help.

So this is a repeat.

We did this podcast.

This is the one that I fucked up and we lost the data.

But I don't want to let this die.

Okay.

Grants.

You're talking about grants.

I'm talking about writing a grant.

And so what I thought we could do is just talk about it again to get the ideas out there.

But this time I won't lose the recording and I'll use this particular episode to mess with the captivate AI because we pay for a third party AI.

I think it's called otter.

I'm looking on my phone.

It's called otter.

Yeah, it's called otter.

And it generates all the show notes and it generates a transcript.

Right.

But if captivates.

Aih, good.

We won't need to pay for that anymore.

And we already got you.

Gotcha.

So it's pretty sick.

So I'm really looking forward to trying it out.

And so we can try it out on a podcast where we.

Where it's just me and you versus a podcast where there's a.

There's an actual guest.

So, yeah, so I wanted to talk about the grant that we had the idea for and actually already perused fiverr, because.

Because I thought we might just hire somebody to write the grant for us after I do, like, a dump and we get all of our ideas out.

So what I'm asking you to help me with today is just, do you mind just, like, talking me through my idea for this particular grant?

Okay, yeah, no problem.

Yeah.

So.

So the original idea was that I had.

I had this.

Oh, yeah.

So actually.

So I'll tell you the story because you know the story, right.

We were working with John Esposito, and we were doing the jazz torture chamber, and the whole thing with jazz.

And I playing through all twelve keys is a thing, but John took it to the next level because he studied with Arthur rames.

And so this is sort of related to that in that I thought, what if instead of, you know, they.

You study jazz and they say, oh, practice the song through all twelve keys?

Well, I thought, what if I.

You have a song that goes through all twelve keys, right?

And what if you had a whole series of compositions that go through all twelve keys?

And so now, that may sound insane to most people, but if you think about the lineage of jazz, there's the blues.

There was ragtime, there was that, like, you know, I forget what it's called, but there was that like oompa pa, sort of like western, classical, popish sort of music.

And that's like the whole.

The whole early jazz, like the early 19 hundreds New Orleans thing, where the blues, the Creole, you know, virtuoso classical musicians.

And then they had this kind of, like.

I can't remember what it's called.

Like this kind of like oompapa sort of music that became like the melting pot that created jazz initially.

And then jazz goes through all these different iterations and make a long story short, eventually you get to giant steps.

And Coltrane had this idea for giant steps.

Where it goes, there's a famous chart, right?

It's like a.

Yeah, I've seen that.

You know, and there's like triangles.

And he found these three keys where there's.

Where they're, like, the least.

They're the most far apart keys that you can have the three of them where, like, all the notes are covered, basically.

Yes.

I'm really simplifying, but for me, that justified my idea where you have an actual song, and maybe in many songs, that go through all twelve keys.

And the truth is that I've actually composed a bunch already.

They're kind of modal, except for one of them, which is based upon giant steps, but it does go through all twelve keys.

It is essentially like a post bebop song.

And.

And so my justification for writing the song, even though it's an insane song, was the Coltrane model.

And maybe.

Maybe that it's a natural evolution for that.

Okay.

And but then also the fact that John Esposito studied with Arthur Rames, and Arthur Rames had this method of practicing, but he would also do this on gigs where they would just play songs through twelve keys.

And you remember that, where he would just call out keys, or they would play a song like giant steps, or they would play a song like, you know, rhythm changes, but then the blues, but then the bridge section would be giant steps, and that would transpose through keys, you know, so it's insane, but there's a model for it, and that was my model.

So, but instead of taking actual song forms and hacking them together and then transposing them, I thought, what if the actual song form went through all twelve keys?

Okay.

And so that's where I'm at, I think.

Right.

Okay.

So I wrote several songs, but I have one in particular that's very bebop y.

And it's more of a song form.

It's based upon giant steps, and it goes through all twelve keys.

The idea for the grant is that it's a natural lineage of jazz, in a way, because it borrows from these other traditions.

But there's the jumping off point is the giant steps.

It jumps one step above giant steps in a way.

It's like, I want to say above, but there's a jumping off point there.

So it's like there's the lineage.

There's the Arthur rhymes aspect, because Arthur Rames is kind of a, I would say unsung legend, something that's interesting.

It's highly theoretical.

So there's a potential academic nuance and aspect to it, which I think is attractive to Granthenne Grantors.

And I guess that.

Is that everything?

I don't know.

So these are all these things?

Yeah, there's two separate elements there.

You have, like, the historical, like, the Arthur Rames element, which you brought up several times as an inspiration, and then there's the composition.

Composition.

Your work, your creative work on that.

So that's two separate.

Two separate things.

So the Arthur Ainz element needs, I think, tightening up.

Mm hmm.

So I don't know if there's.

I mean, because the.

You've already done the composition, and you've already.

That's kind of done.

But how that, like we say Arthur Ames, we kind of know what that means, but.

But we're going to communicate that to people who maybe never even heard his name, which is probably 99% of the planet.

Yep.

What does that mean?

Okay.

Uh, I'm just spitballing.

Oh, good point.

So, yeah, so, um.

So I think the Arthur Rheims, like, the history, the.

You know, it feels a little bit.

So.

Yeah, so that now that you bring it up, it feels a little bit, I don't know, disingenuous in a way, because I feel like, in a way, we're sort of.

I am.

I'll take credit and blame, actually, for this, is that I'm sort of, like, piggybacking off of his.

In jazz circles.

We're not the only people who've heard of him in jazz circles.

You know, like Tim.

You remember Tim from the Internet.

He's heard of him.

A lot of people.

Yeah.

You know, people who are into jazz have heard of Arthur rhymes.

Just nothing, you know, lay people.

But I do.

I take your point that it's sort of like.

But who is he for real, and why is it even important?

And I guess it's because I do think that we had a connection with him and that we studied with John, and that was a significant part of the education, and that was a significant part of the inspiration that I had to make the composition and to make a series of compositions based upon that.

But I.

So maybe there's some.

Some sort of, like, we act as historians.

Maybe we sort of collect data, collect information.

Maybe we become.

We become like, the progenitors of some.

Some aspect of this history, this Arthur Rheims history.

You know, video exists.

There's some video on the Internet now that surfaced.

There's a.

He has a website right there.

Someone or some people who are devoted to keeping the legacy alive, so.

Right.

Maybe.

I don't know if I'm taking your point the right way, but maybe it's either we didn't.

I didn't focus enough on it, or maybe it's just that it's just part of the lineage and that.

And we have to figure out if it's an important part of the grant, or is it how much of an important part of the story is the Arthur Rheims bit?

Or is it just that, you know, Arthur Rheims was a major figure in this.

Right, right, right.

I.

Yeah, and if you want to.

Yeah.

All right, here's our.

And then make a reference to John Coltrane.

Arthur a.

Say that all again.

I'm sorry.

I think you just, like, got a little funky cutout.

Oh, yeah.

It says, I have an unstable connection.

Can you hear me now?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just saying.

Maybe Arthur Ames is just something referenced John Coltrane history.

It's just like he's part of the lineage.

It's not like a central, you know, huge part of it.

So that would be because other people are curating it.

Other, you know, keep.

Like that whole thing's already being done.

Yes.

So maybe it's just because we have that personal connection.

We keep bringing it up, but it's just something we'd reference, like you said, put links to his website, etc.

Yeah, so.

Well, yeah, so, yeah, I think.

I think.

You think it's a sort of a good point that there needs to be.

I think when you're writing a grant, you're telling a story.

Yeah.

So I think, like, telling the story of the lineage of jazz, telling the story, at least having a nice couple of sentences in there in the fact that Arthur Rheims is a interesting character and figure in the whole thing.

And our connection to him.

Yeah.

Was important, but we don't need to belabor it, you know, because I think it is an interesting part of the story, because he was like, just like a, you know, virtuoso, kind of a incendiary sort of performer.

Was a gay man at time.

So it's sort of, you know, was a.

I guess, like, if he.

If people actually knew who the hell he was, he might have been a historic figure in a way, you know, to be part of that community.

I believe he died of AIDS.

Do you know?

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah.

So also, you know, something a little bit.

I don't know.

I guess, like, part of the story, not important to what we're doing, but, like, just, you know, part of his.

Important parts of his story, but also the fact that he was a multi instrumentalist and a virtuoso and blah, blah, blah and unsung, but then saying any more than that is probably not necessary.

Right, exactly.

Exactly.

Because the focus is going to be on the concept, the extension that you're talking about, all the keys and stuff like that.

So it's just showing the context.

Right.

So then the part of the grant that.

So I think having the story, the part of the grant that we're actually asking money for is the educational part, and that's where I think it needs to be fleshed out a bit more.

We're asking for money from whatever grant, whatever philanthropic organizations give arts grants, education grants, etcetera, to my.

I mean, so this is where I'm sort of.

This is my idea is to hire other musicians to flesh out this composition, to learn to play over it, to write etudes, to come, to interpret the composition, to crystallize this thing that's kind of no more than an idea, but also to bring it to an educational setting, probably higher end jazz, high school situations, or maybe even a college setting, to have student performances of this.

Of these.

This particular composition, or maybe multiple compositions, or maybe that's a future.

Maybe each composition has his own grant, and then to have a couple of different interpretations of it, you know, I don't know.

So that was, I guess, the idea.

Mm hmm.

Yeah, no, that's actually.

That's actually.

That's a solid idea.

I like the idea of.

And I'm sort of.

I'm starting to understand the seed.

Like, you have giant steps as this iconic song that people use to challenge themselves in that way, to create more compositions that get to the heart of that and challenge the performer and or composer.

Um, so, yeah, that's.

I mean, I think you have the solid kernel there.

I'm just wondering, like, I mean, giant steps is such a great example, because you do have Tommy Flanagande, is that right?

His solo next to Coltrane solo.

And, like, the example of, like, knowing how to do it or not knowing how to do.

It's illustrative, but I will like the idea of having other people involved and all that, like, the educational angle.

That's going to be very appealing, I think, to, I would imagine, towards getting a grant because you're trying to do something for the benefit of people, not just, like, indulging your own, like, whatever, you know.

Right.

So that's where the idea.

The idea for the grant came from.

Margaret's dad, who I think I told you, because he's.

He was.

He's very experienced in writing grants, arts grants.

But he said, they only give.

They don't give you money.

Because initially, I thought, oh, why don't I just apply for a grant and just get, like, a, you know, local arts grant, and they'll just pay me to write the song myself.

And that may be possible.

You know, there might be a grant out there just for an artist to produce art.

Like, if you have, like, a local, you know, like, New York City has a lot of arts focused philanthropic organizations.

Who.

My guess is.

And I just don't even know, but my guess is they would say, oh, yeah, we'll give.

That sounds interesting.

We'll give you money so you can become, like, a crazy New York artist and just explore this one stupid idea you have.

Like, because we're interested in being patrons of the arts in New York, and we don't care if you teach anybody to do it.

We just want you to compose the song and write a bunch of etudes and figure out how to play on it.

And then your song will be something that could be a flash in the pan, it could just die on the vine, or it could become something wonderful that becomes part of the legacy of, for instance, New York, which has a great legacy of being an arts, a center of the arts.

I thought that was even possible.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

I don't know, but.

Cause that could be some.

So if we could screw the whole education aspect or just say we're gonna get money, just so we can take a month off and do nothing but play this song, you know?

Yeah, that's something that might exist.

On the other hand, Margaret's dad said no, the national Endowment of the arts is a good target, and they're a national, obviously, philanthropy, but philanthropic organization.

But they won't give you money just to fucking do your art.

You know, they're gonna only give you money if you bring it to an educate.

They'll give you money if you make it part of the education system.

So that's where the idea came from.

You know, it seems like it might be a better sell.

You know, might be an easier sell.

Yeah.

It's just, I don't.

I don't know.

I don't have any particular insight on how to connect to creativity, to educational institutions or mechanisms, per se.

Yeah.

But nevertheless, it's good you got that feedback from Margaret's father.

It's good to know that.

So.

So I.

I think I have an idea.

Okay.

Because this is super helpful to talk it through.

Okay.

And last time we did this, we actually had a plan to move forward, and I fucked up by, you know, not saving the thing before the.

Before the stupid Spotify podcasting platform changed their rules and I lost the recording.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So we're sort of starting from scratch.

But one idea was to reach out to John Esposito.

I think that's a good idea just to get.

Just to sort of touch base, say, hey, how you doing?

I had this idea.

We'd love to talk to you about it.

We'd love to interview you on the podcast just because you've been a real important figure for us in general.

Yeah, but we'd also like feedback on this idea.

Yeah.

We also would love to know if you have any experience with the grant writing process or getting grants.

And that's.

John, I think that doing research into the Arthur rames thing, maybe getting some people on the podcast who have personal stories about Arthur rhymes, finding other resources, fleshing out that.

That side of things, hiring a grant writer or a grant researcher.

There are some on Fiverr.

I saw one for, like $100, $130.

I think she does, like, the whole thing Shebang for you.

And she writes the grant.

I think the grant has to be a really cool story.

The legacy, the lineage of Jazzenhe historic component, something like a really cool story, and then delivering and then having this legacy live on somehow, but also having the spirit of jazz, you know?

Oh, actually, I made this up.

I feel like I probably have told you this before, but for me, I always wanted to.

No one wants to define jazz, you know?

And, you know, if you ask a jazz musician what jazz is, and they'll say, I don't play jazz.

I play music.

Yeah.

But for me, I labored on it a little bit, and I thought, okay, jazz.

Like, how do you even define jazz?

And I think that.

And, you know, if you ask Wynton Marsalis, he says it's got to be sw.

It's got to swing, you know?

And, like, what does that even fucking mean, you know?

But I thought jazz has three eyes.

Improvisation is necessary in jazz individuality, so your own voice is necessary in jazz and innovation.

Right.

Because jazz has never really stood still.

Right.

You know?

So it just came up.

It came back to me.

So I thought maybe layering that in because jazz doesn't sit still.

Right.

There's always has to be some sort of jumping off point.

Had grown sort of to the.

As far as it had gone, like, we had bebop, you had modal jazz, and you had free jazz or net.

And, like, to me, maybe Coltrane is a third part of it.

Maybe he's part of bebop.

But jazz didn't really.

I don't know if it really innovated past that, you know, those.

Those three little.

So, for me, technically, what I'm trying to do is sort of still a jumping off point on one of these little threads, but it's.

I mean, I feel like it's still a legitimate.

Even though it's derivative, it's a legitimate iteration or a legitimate innovation, you know?

So I feel like there's something about the.

About the soul of jazz that has to be innovative, you know?

So, anyway, I just wanted to bring that up so I don't forget.

So I think we have a plan now.

I think we do, right?

Yeah, I think we do.

We want to reach out to John Esposito.

Yeah.

And.

Or people involved in the Arthur Ames projects, such as they are, because they'll be an amazing resource, at least to, like, a get good interview content for our own podcast and be, like, John's very much plugged into the community and maybe still working as an educator and have access to those networks.

Right?

So.

Yes.

Cool.

All right, so we did a good job.

Thank you for.

My pleasure, Keith.

Dude, you know, you're the man.

Come on, consulary.

I'm your consulari.

Oh.

So, did you.

Did you happen to watch the St Uno or listen to it yet?

Wait, was that the hip hop?

Yeah, the hip hop, dude.

One or.

Yes.

So I was telling him, because this is.

Because I.

No, no, but.

Oh, but.

But listen, I wasn't podcast the podcast.

I was telling him.

Cause I was like, dude.

I was.

I said, saint.

I said, his name is.

I don't know what his real name is.

I forget.

We know his real name.

But St Uno.

And I was like.

I was like, dude, you know, usually Dan and I are here together, and the whole thing with our show is that Dan and I have a rapport.

Yeah.

Where.

And it's.

And it's probably gonna be funnier.

It would be funnier if Dan was here.

Yeah.

And unfortunately.

Well, actually.

But it wasn't.

It wasn't super funny.

But that's, like, what I rely on you for, is just to, like, you know, get the juices going because of our rapport.

Anyway, that's.

So I'm glad we got to do a pod, actual podcast.

Good.

Anyway, that.

So let's.

Let's shut it down.

All right, bro.

Yeah.

So, thank you for watching, listening, whatever you do.

This podcast is usually.

Usually comes in a video and audio format, so you can check it out on YouTube or on your favorite podcasting app.

Please, like and subscribe.

All that crap.

Leave a rating review, and don't forget to play some music?

Because that's what we are trying to encourage people to do.

Peace.

Peace, y'all.

Later.

Bye.